Getting Used To It: Good Girls Don't...

Female pleasure, women's anger, divorce — three things that were basically unspeakable when we were growing up. Nobody said don't talk about it. We just knew. This episode is about what it costs to swallow things that were always yours to feel.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Remember the perms, the shoulder pads, the aquinate hairspray. I love the way that smells. Oh my gosh. And let me just throw in there the blue eyeliner. The 80s, as a specific sensory world, you actually lived in.

SPEAKER_00 0:17

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:18

We talk about the fashion like it was a joke. The hair, the spray, but there was a whole other layer of that decade that nobody talks about. And it isn't Reagan. The things that were happening in houses, in marriages, in women's, in women's bodies, excuse me, that had no language, no permission, no room. And some of us are still carrying them around.

SPEAKER_00 0:42

That's what we're going to talk about today. The three things that were unspeakable in the 80s and what it cost us that they were, that the stuff that we didn't talk about in this is episode one of Taboo Topics. Oh, yeah. We want to keep talking about this because I felt like Aquanet wasn't taboo topic, but Dana, we used a lot of it. We should have been a taboo topic.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

My mom smelled like it. It was like the scent of her hair.

SPEAKER_00 1:08

You know, gosh. Did our hair even move?

SPEAKER_01 1:13

So it was it was cemented for a windy city.

Divorce And The Stigma Of Leaving

SPEAKER_00 1:16

Oh, it really was. It really was. So number one, big topic, divorce, bum, bum, bum.

SPEAKER_01 1:25

Yeah, that happened in the 80s, although to my family in the 70s.

SPEAKER_00 1:29

Oh, is that when they got divorced? That must have been super taboo then.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

Probably so.

SPEAKER_00 1:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

Um, so yeah, what did divorce actually look like in the 80s? The neighbor who left their husband, or the husband that left the wife, the friend whose parents split, and suddenly she was different. The whispers at school, at the grocery store.

unknown 1:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:56

I mean, what labeled failure? It was a verdict, especially on a woman, right? Maybe it stayed too long because leaving meant becoming that word socially unacceptable.

SPEAKER_01 2:13

Um you know, to not to leave your partner for sure.

SPEAKER_00 2:18

But I mean, I'm sure you know just trying to think of did I know anyone in the 80s that got divorced? I'm not sure that I knew any couples. It just really didn't seem like a thing.

SPEAKER_01 2:35

I can't Yeah, I mean, I mean, first of all, you have to think about like how old were we in the 80s? Yes, we were young people, right? So it would have landed differently for us. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:47

Um, but I still remember friends whose parents were divorced.

SPEAKER_01 2:52

Yeah, I don't think I remember chair. I think I knew one, yeah. Actually, I knew one fan family that we were close with, but again, I think it happened in the late 70s. Um, and we really and we liked both parties somehow. I don't even know how my family made that work.

SPEAKER_00 3:10

Um I was gonna say, so then did it feel like you were a taboo topic?

SPEAKER_01 3:16

Like you're personally, I mean, I don't know that I felt like I was a taboo topic because I was living it. I mean, I don't really know that shame or anything like that. I'm sure there, I'm sure there was, but now we're asking me to recall the life of a 10-year-old. Yes. Um, I think I really wanted my parents now. I'm on the hot seat. I think I really wanted my parents to get back together because I I guess I thought that's what was supposed to happen, you know, right? Um, and I remember always, you know, um, you know, when you go like over the train tracks and you cross your fingers or like uh those kind of things. Yeah. I remember always for a while, for like a probably a year, wanting them to get back together. And then I think as I matured a little bit, like into my teens, I remember thinking, like, and my parents would would dabble with being together. And I remember thinking, I remember thinking, and I know this episode is not about this. I remember thinking to myself, oh my god, I don't like this at all. You didn't like it when they were two. No, because it had been several years since they'd been together, right? And then all of a sudden, like both of them, they I mean, they were um each other's kind of oldest friend, they would often say, like, because they met when they were like 13 and 15. And um, then they got married when they were like 19 and 21, you know. So they would have moments when they weren't with a partner, and yet we my brother and I were young enough so that like, you know, my dad would come and pick the pick us up because he had visitation or what have you. And um yeah, I remember this one time in particular where they got back together and I was just like, I fucking hate this. Because they just weren't themselves anymore, right? So first I knew them as a unit, then they split up, then I had to get to know them as separate individuals, and then a few years later, once I knew them as separate individuals, which did take some time, especially where my dad was concerned, when they got back together, then they were this other unit that they were not, not the first time, and they were not these individual people either. And I was like, I fucking hate this. I like them better apart, and that's what I grew to think.

SPEAKER_00 5:43

Do you do you did your mom ever tell you what it I'm sure she didn't, but I'm gonna ask a question anyways. Did your mom feel any certain way because she was divorced? Like, did friendships, did you notice anything like that?

SPEAKER_01 5:56

I didn't really, I mean, I I didn't really notice that so much, although I'm sure there was some sort of whispering, you know. Um, but I feel like you know, I think my mom was like 26 when my parents split up.

SPEAKER_00 6:20

Oh wow, so young.

SPEAKER_01 6:21

Oh my god, you know, or maybe let's see, 27, maybe something like that. I mean, I was no, hold on, let me do the math. I'm just gonna grow it by another year. 28. So my mom was 28. So it's like she was like this young person, yeah, you know, and then she was with somebody else, like a live a boyfriend who became like a livin'. So it wasn't like she was this you know, woman in the apartment block who was single for very long, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 7:00

Yeah, and I'm just thinking also because it was so I mean because that was the 70s, so it that I mean, talk about guts right for doing something that way, like that, yeah, no one else was, and it was taboo, and most especially in the 70s, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:20

And I don't know, I I actually don't know which of my parents decided that it was the thing they were gonna do.

SPEAKER_00 7:28

Oh fascinating. So yeah, I keep saying that word, but it really, really fascinating.

SPEAKER_01 7:34

I'm sure that there was whispers. Yeah, did I hear them so much? Not really, and I there was already like I was already, and there probably were a lot of young families, anyways, but that felt like more of a taboo in a weird way, yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah, my mom was also the woman who didn't wear a bra in the 70s.

SPEAKER_00 8:00

Okay, so this video was just she was a whole taboo topic.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

I mean, there were things I was having to get used to that were you know different, and divorce somehow slipped into the back the back corner, and this one and just became like my reality and not necessarily anybody like anybody else's.

SPEAKER_00 8:18

Yeah, so you have to wonder how many women actually stayed in a marriage back then because it was and especially of course, not because they wanted to, but because there was no there wasn't a choice, they thought.

SPEAKER_01 8:32

Yeah, yeah. And also if you think about it, like maybe not so much in the 80s, but like definitely in the 70s, like you, I mean, we're women, I mean, not even today do women get equal pay. So, you know, like then you had to think about like how supporting your supporting yourself too financially.

SPEAKER_00 8:53

What do how do I do this? Yeah, there was a lot of manage if you choose might have just been easier to stay with your husband, yeah. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 9:03

Unless, of course, there was abuse and neglect and um violence for sure. Exactly. Please jump. Yep, run, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:13

So um let's move on to the next taboo. I like this one, yeah. Female anger anger, anger, right?

SPEAKER_01 9:25

Well, and also like female anger, but also female strength being misperceived as anger, anger, like women being thought of like powerful women being thought of as bitches, too. We didn't cover it.

SPEAKER_00 9:39

I was just about to say, I would all fall under the word bitch, right? Like not obviously not positively, right?

SPEAKER_01 9:47

And well, and and like in the 80s, what was acceptable was like a contained emotion, a woman whose emotions were contained, whether they be powerful, whether they be angry, whether they be sad.

SPEAKER_00 9:59

Yeah, totally. And I think also you could be sad, you're allowed to be cheerful, but never angry. Yeah, right. So, um, or what is it? Are you on the rag?

SPEAKER_01 10:11

Oh my god, yeah, right. You must be on your period.

SPEAKER_00 10:14

Yeah, exactly. Oh, hormones, yeah, right. So, oh gosh, that person's she's so difficult. Oh, right, annoying. Um, it's so interesting.

SPEAKER_01 10:26

Like, how did that become a thing where women actually be angry or themselves, let's just say, and how about we're just not little men or even the bigger women that are man-sized, like we're just not yeah, the female version of men, and thank god we're finally realizing that, you know? Yeah, and and I hope the guys are getting it, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:50

Totally, and I feel like there's that shift that's changing. And I it was always interesting to me that like for men when they got angry, they were powerful. But when women, right, they got angry, oh, you gotta watch out for her. She's feeling a little bitchy or she's on the rag today. Um, and it wasn't something powerful. Um, and then I still don't think being angry is powerful, right? So it's just interesting that this was something that I feel like is so misdiagnosed, right? This is all not right, either however you want to label what anger does for people. But you know, so you have to wonder women again. We were young. We we had we were young enough that we were having our little tantrums and things, and I'm not sure that it landed on us that we couldn't be angry really quite yet. Maybe we're heading into that. I don't know, 80s, yeah, later 80s. We're we're like college, high school kind of place in that space, but I think times were starting to change just a little bit. Maybe there was a little bit of something different happening. But I remember for my mom, my mom did angry really well, but only inside the house. And I I could see how she would turn that off on the outside, public facing right.

SPEAKER_01 12:15

So she had like, yeah, yeah, a mask, right? So where did we so I mean, obviously, women got angry just like men. So where did they put their anger?

SPEAKER_00 12:25

Oh, inside, deep down, compartmentalizing into the body, right?

SPEAKER_01 12:31

And how does that end up, you know, showing up?

SPEAKER_00 12:35

I mean, probably eating disorders, right?

SPEAKER_01 12:38

Anxiety anxiety, depression, medicating.

SPEAKER_00 12:41

Yeah, it's probably perfection there, probably perfection. Yeah, gotta look, you gotta look right. Um, and maybe into silence that got mistaken for strength.

SPEAKER_01 12:55

Yeah, that was more my style was to just uh guard up. Yeah, you know, you're not getting in here.

SPEAKER_00 13:05

I remember my dad said one time I was crying about something, and he said, Why are you crying? Why are you upset? And that meant to me turn it off. So that's what I started doing. Was yeah, I guess I have to keep that on the inside.

SPEAKER_01 13:21

Yeah, yeah. Or like I heard from my dad, don't cry, don't cry about that. Why are you crying? Yeah, yeah. But I went to the case. I remember my dad speaking of female, you know, women, I adored Lucille Ball when I was growing up, and he really had a problem with me watching that show. Oh, really? He felt that she did not represent a strong woman, which I completely disagree with him and disagreed with him because she was funny, and while she got herself into some shit, um, and no, it wasn't a model of a 70s woman, she still was like, it was her show, you know.

SPEAKER_00 14:01

Yes. Oh my gosh, it was old.

SPEAKER_01 14:04

Lucy, not Desi, by the way. She was the master of her own game.

SPEAKER_00 14:09

Yeah, that was pretty cool. Yeah, yeah. Oh my gosh, I love that show. Right. So, do you remember the last time the first time, not the last time, the first time you were ever angry about something, and you were you did it out loud, didn't care, and you're like, you know what? Fuck it. I'm angry, not apologizing.

SPEAKER_01 14:28

I mean, only at my brother.

SPEAKER_00 14:30

Oh, yeah. Well, does that yeah, does that count? Yeah, my brother would be like, excuse me, me, hello.

SPEAKER_01 14:37

Um, and I that I I mean, not in the 80s, right? I mean, in a workplace, a professional workplace. Maybe I do remember the time I I I was. I mean, it wasn't in the 80s, though, it was already, you know, 20 years later. But yeah.

Female Pleasure And Permission

SPEAKER_00 14:55

Yeah, I remember was yeah, it was early 90s, right? Like I think it was like '93. Oh, I don't know if it's a story for online. I will tell you afterwards. Maybe one day I will tell it if Beth is like, oh, you can say that one on okay, okay. But I I will definitely tell you later. Okay. Um, you know what? It's funny, I just noticed I don't know that we meant to put make this so female. We really didn't design it to be that way, but the third one, but it's about female pleasure. We literally just were thinking taboo topics, but listen, they give ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 15:30

Um, I mean, so far, you know, when I think about divorce, anger, and I think we'll get into this with pleasure, it's all about permission.

SPEAKER_00 15:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:39

Like what were we allowed, right?

SPEAKER_00 15:43

Yeah. That's a great segue into this one.

SPEAKER_01 15:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:48

Because I think that it it just it didn't exist in movies, right? And if it did, it was more about um probably just x-rated and like it's gotta be done a certain way, or you know, it's just for a woman to be looked at, you know. It wasn't about the actual, this is how a woman pleasures herself, right? Yeah, yeah. It's it's always uh it's it's uh very curated.

SPEAKER_01 16:18

Yeah, we didn't talk about it in health class, by the way. No, no, no, or in polite conversation, no, you know now look at us.

SPEAKER_00 16:29

We're talking about it on a podcast that would go out into who knows to how many people. So times have definitely changed. But you know, back then I think even if you talked about it, you're not a good girl.

SPEAKER_01 16:43

Yeah, yeah, but there were words around that. Yeah, if you liked it.

SPEAKER_00 16:50

Yeah, then there's choice words for you, yeah. And then pleasure for its own sake of pleasure, right? Oh, yeah, hide, hide that, hide that, yes, sure, yes, yeah, that was interesting, and then the there's like the specific silence around what women actually want to embed in relationships in life, right?

SPEAKER_01 17:15

What you're allowed to say, ask for, etc. It's really all about the permission of being an equal in a world that is a patriarchy, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:24

You know, and you just kind of served. Yeah, that's I just see it more as like a picture. I keep seeing like this, you're just like a picture, you're there to like put the makeup on, make the experience really great for your guy. Yeah, and then and then bye-bye, right? So to think even through so two-dimensional, if you think about it, very two-dimensional. So the fact that a woman would want some pleasure for her own self by herself, wow, that would have been so taboo. And at some point, I'm really, really curious because um if you look at sex toys out there now, there's much more out there for women now than men. Yeah, you know, which I find interesting. Like, where where did this kind of flip, at least as far as like sex toys goes, you know? Um yeah, interesting. Maybe there's just more side note. Yeah, yeah, hold on. Side thought. But back then, I wonder what women did do when they started to find and discover their own bodies. Like, was there so much shame that like is it just like we said before? Then you're like stuffing that emotion, you don't talk about it, friends don't talk about it. Um you wonder if you are slutty, if you are one of those girls and you're just hiding it. Oh my gosh, am I not a good girl now? You know, like I wonder what the thoughts were then, yeah. Like 85. Or do you remember any of that? Like girls.

SPEAKER_01 19:06

I mean, I feel like I had no, I mean, sure, I remember the binary of like, if you liked sex, you were there was a label for you, and then and like absolutely no education on how to talk about what you liked or didn't like in bed. Yeah, you know, yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 19:29

It's there's I mean, I feel like we just went through a whole you're right, it is really about permission, yeah, right, and permission about what you're wanting to do.

SPEAKER_01 19:40

Yeah, I mean, if you think about it, like the connection here between divorce and anger and pleasure. I mean, like you said, permission, but like there's no language for us in in which to, you know, ask for more.

SPEAKER_00 19:55

Or do you even talk about it, right? Like, how do you even say like that felt good for me as a woman? I want more of that without feeling like you'd be judged. I don't want this relationship anymore. I am angry, I'm pissed, right? Like all that stuff had to just live silently.

SPEAKER_01 20:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:17

And um, so taboo, so taboo. Uh wow, we got this is very different than Aquanet. Buy it. And perms and shoulder pads. But yeah, I mean, that those were the 80s. And I I like having this conversation because it does show how far we have gotten, you know, if you think about it, which is really, really nice too. Yeah. Um, and like I said earlier, the fact that we're just talking about this, I'm singing on air, you know, and it's gonna go out to who knows, and we have no idea who's even gonna hear this. Like, and we're okay with that.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:56

And I'm gonna be really angry with you later, Beth, and I'm gonna be fine with that.

SPEAKER_01 21:02

Makes me think just for a second about like the whole trad wife thing and and how perhaps this like keeping it quiet into yourself thing might be coming back around. I don't know. So I'm not a trad wife, you know.

SPEAKER_00 21:18

I mean, we grew up in a thing that that could be uh a trend, right?

SPEAKER_01 21:22

Like, yeah, what do you see that I I know? I just want to go, I want to run in the other direction from something like that. I was like, more rights for us, more money for us, more options for us, more lanes to swim in.

SPEAKER_00 21:36

Is it because it's for the I don't know, it's such a great question because they're younger, they haven't been through it, and so we're we're like, oh no, the memories are awful over there.

SPEAKER_01 21:45

I know, don't go there, don't go there, young people. I know, I know.

SPEAKER_00 21:49

But people don't listen, they have to make make it their own way, they gotta do their own way, figure it out, and absolutely. And guess what? We have to do with that.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Is it time for us to say goodbye?

SPEAKER_00 22:02

Yeah. We're gonna have to get used to it.

SPEAKER_01 22:05

Yeah, absolutely. I think we are.

SPEAKER_00 22:08

We are. We're doing a pretty good job, I think.

SPEAKER_01 22:09

Yeah.

unknown 22:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:10

Good job.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

Okay, I'm gonna go I'm gonna go perm my hair. And I'm gonna go.

SPEAKER_00 22:16

Okay. Bye.

SPEAKER_01 22:17

Bye.